{"id":996,"date":"2022-01-29T21:11:00","date_gmt":"2022-01-29T20:11:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/relativelyspeaking.one-name.blog\/wp\/?p=996"},"modified":"2022-01-29T21:11:02","modified_gmt":"2022-01-29T20:11:02","slug":"the-curious-case-of-elsie-margaret-marshall","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/relativelyspeaking.one-name.blog\/wp\/?p=996","title":{"rendered":"The curious case of Elsie Margaret Marshall"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

I am not a fan of loose ends<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

My mum had sorted out the ancestry of all of her grandparents, all except Elsie Margaret Marshall<\/em>. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

This is Elsie, highlighted at my grandparents’ wedding in 1951. Her husband Arthur Cropp<\/em> is far left (we think he is standing on a step, otherwise he is very tall indeed!)<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"<\/figure>\n\n\n\n

We knew that Elsie married Arthur Cropp in 1919 in Portsmouth. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

They had five children: Arthur Cecil (1920-2005), Douglas (1922-2000), Edgar Colin (1929-2008), Margaret IW (1933-) and my grandfather, Leslie John (1924-2000). <\/p>\n\n\n\n

By 1939, Elsie and Arthur were living in R.A.F. Cranwell, Lincolnshire, where Arthur was an Engineer’s draughtsman. Some of their children may have lived with them, but because they were on an Air Force base the numbering is consecutive rather than by household, and the children were mostly born less than 100 years ago. I’m sure they will appear soon enough.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

What we can tell from the 1939 register entry is that Elsie Margaret Marshall was born on 11 Feb 1897. Arthur was 20 months younger than his wife, having been born on 6 Oct 1898. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

So far, so sensible. But … <\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Mum knew that Elsie “had no family”. She could not locate her definitively on the 1911 census, or the 1901. There were plenty of Elsie Marshalls around, but none that obviously fit. My own research meant that I could rule out all of the Elsie Marshalls of approximately the right age living in or around Portsmouth in the 1910s. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

So who was she?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Curiosity is the bedrock of genealogical research. I’m nosy. I’m not happy with just knowing the birth, marriage and death dates of my great grandmother. I want to know who she was, who her people were, and why she was so elusive before she married my great grandfather.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Clue number 1<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

I purchased a copy of Arthur and Elsie’s marriage certificate. Always go to the original source if possible. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
Marriage certificate, Arthur Cropp and Elsie Margaret Marshall<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

And suddenly I had Elsie’s father! I knew that there was always a chance that there would not be a father listed (and of course, she could always have been lying), but here was a clue I could work with. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

John Henry Marshall<\/em>, gunsmith, lived in Newbury, Berkshire. Fifty miles north of Portsmouth. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Tracking down the gunsmith and his family<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

I found John Henry Marshall<\/em> on the 1911 census, hoping he was living with a daughter of similar name and age to Elsie, but clearly things were going to be more complicated. <\/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\t\n\n\t\n\t\n\t\n\t\n\t
Name<\/th>Relationship<\/th>Age<\/th>Marital status<\/th>Completed years of marriage<\/th>Children born alive<\/th>Children still living<\/th>Children who have died<\/th>Personal occupation<\/th>Industry or service<\/th>Employer, worker or working on own account<\/th>Working at home<\/th>Birthplace<\/th>\n<\/tr>\n<\/thead>\n
John Henry Marshall<\/td>Head<\/td>34<\/td>Married<\/td><\/td><\/td><\/td><\/td>Gunmakers Dealers Shop Assistant<\/td><\/td>Worker<\/td>at home<\/td>Speen, nr Newbury, Berkshire<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Rose Marshall<\/td>Wife<\/td>32<\/td>Married<\/td>5<\/td>1<\/td>1<\/td>0<\/td><\/td><\/td><\/td><\/td>Newbury, Berkshire<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Cissy Maud Marshall<\/td>Daughter<\/td>14<\/td>Single<\/td><\/td><\/td><\/td><\/td>Just left school<\/td><\/td><\/td><\/td>Newbury, Berkshire<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Reginald Brindley<\/td>Stepson<\/td>14<\/td>Single<\/td><\/td><\/td><\/td><\/td>Apprentice (on trial)<\/td>Coachbuilder<\/td>Worker<\/td><\/td>Newbury, Berkshire<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Dorothy Elsie Marshall<\/td>Daughter<\/td>3<\/td><\/td><\/td><\/td><\/td><\/td><\/td><\/td><\/td><\/td>Newbury, Berkshire<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n\n\n\n\n

John was living with his wife, two daughters and a stepson. We do have an Elsie, but she is Dorothy Elsie, and was born in 1908. There is a daughter born in 1897, but she is Cissy Maud.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Digging deeper<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Researching back a little, I discovered that John Henry Marshall<\/em> had married Edith Watts<\/em> in 1896 in Newbury. Their daughter Cissy Maud Marshall<\/em> was born in Q1 1897, again in Newbury. But Edith died in 1898. The 1901 census has Cissy and her father living with his parents at 3 Park Street, Newbury. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

John Henry married Rose Brindley<\/em> in 1905. Rose already had an illegitimate son, Victor Reginald Pearce Brindley,<\/em> born in 1896\/7, and the couple then had a daughter, Dorothy Elsie<\/em>, in 1908.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Hypothesis 1. Elsie Margaret Marshall was an illegitimate daughter of John Henry Marshall<\/span><\/strong><\/h5>\n\n\n\n

<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Proving this with so little evidence was going to be tricky. I only had her father’s name and birth date. No birth place, or mother’s name. I looked at all the Elsie Margarets born in the right quarter of 1897, but I could trace their lives forwards and they were not my grandmother. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Hypothesis 2. She lied about her age and\/or father<\/span><\/strong><\/h5>\n\n\n\n

<\/p>\n\n\n\n

This was definitely worst case scenario, and not easy to prove. I needed more evidence. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

The 1921 census comes to the rescue (kind of!)<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

This curious case happened to coincide with the release of the 1921 census, and I was so excited to pop along to Manchester Central Library and find my ancestors in the records. They have great coffee and cake too. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
Post-census coffee and cake<\/figcaption><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n

I was hoping for a birthplace, and I found it. Elsie Margaret was born in Newbury, Berkshire, in 1897. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

This strengthened the case for her NOT lying about her father’s name at least, as the Marshall family were firmly based in Newbury for a few generations back. And at least she was being consistent with her claimed age. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Sticking with the illegitimacy idea, I moved on to looking at all the Elsies born in the right quarter in Newbury. Fortunately there were not many of them. But all of them were traceable with reasonable confidence. And none of them were my great grandmother. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Step away from the problem<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

When stuck in genealogy I move sideways. I decided to take another look at John Henry Marshall’s family. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Dorothy Elsie Marshall<\/em> – married Arthur J Heath in 1931 in Newbury. He was a motor fitter. She died in 1998. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Evelyn Violet Marshall<\/em> – married Horace V Terry in 1941 in Croydon, Surrey. Died in 2005. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Reginald Brindley <\/em>– married Alice M Cambridge in 1924 in Newbury. Was still in Newbury in 1939, working as a gas main layer. Died in 1975. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

John Henry Marshall<\/em> – after Rose’s death, we find John Henry Marshall in 1939 with a “housekeeper”, Agnes Martin Beverley<\/em>. He was still working as a gunsmith. John married Agnes in October 1939, but died two years later in 1941. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Rose Marshall<\/em> – died in 1933. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
John Henry Marshall, his first two wives and their children<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

Nothing wildly exciting in these lives, much to my disappointment. And John Henry Marshall died intestate, so no chance of a nice handwritten will mentioning his daughters. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

I left Cissy until last, because after a quick search I could not find her<\/strong>. After 1911 she disappears from the record. There are a couple of Cissy Marshalls emigrating to Canada, which was a possibility, but nothing conclusive. Another idea sprung to mind …<\/p>\n\n\n\n

<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Hypothesis 3. Was Elsie actually Cissy?<\/span><\/strong><\/h5>\n\n\n\n

<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Well, I requested Cissy’s birth certificate. And look! Her birthdate is 11th February 1897. The SAME DAY as Elsie Margaret states on the 1939 register. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
Birth certificate of Cissy Maud Marshall<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

Now, at this point, I thought I had one of two situations. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

  1. John Henry Marshall happened to have two daughters, one illegitimate and one legitimate, born on the same day, one of whom disappeared after 1911. <\/li>
  2. John Henry Marshall had one daughter with his wife Edith Watts. Cissy Maud Marshall at some point between 1911 and 1919 changed her name and moved to Portsmouth. <\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n
    \n\n\n\n

    I reckon option 2 is far more likely. It fits with my mum’s recollection of her grandmother’s family history, of a daughter who walked away from her family, or whose family were no longer in the picture by the time she was a young adult.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    But could I prove it?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Well, I can take a step closer. Again, serendipitously, I received my Ancestry DNA results shortly after this curious adventure. In amongst the matches, as well as people who were linked through John Henry Marshall, were several who claimed descendancy from James Watts and Tabitha Parrott, Cissy Maud Marshall’s maternal great grandparents. Their presence lends weight to the hypothesis that Elsie was the daughter of Edith. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Enough for now. Enough for me? <\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Well, no. I am still curious. I have a lot of questions. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Where was Elsie between 1911 and 1919? The address she gives on her marriage certificate, 1 Lennox Road North, Southsea, is ambiguous, as Lennox Road is in two halves, and the northern section does not have a no. 1. Lennox Road South starts at no. 1, and has some large houses with interesting occupants. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

    \"\"
    1 Lennox Road South on the left here. <\/figcaption><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n

    <\/p>\n\n\n\n

    In 1901, 1 Lennox Road South was the home of George Anson Primrose. He was not there at the time of the census, as he was busy being a Vice Admiral. His wife, daughters, and several servants were at home though. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

    By 1911 Douglas Davidson Pryce was in residence. He was a Lieutenant Colonel in the Indian Army.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    And in 1921 Margaretta Caroline Ohlson lived there, with three female servants. Margaretta was the widow of Anders Ohlson the Consul General in Sweden, but resident in Cape Town, South Africa. He died in 1912, and Margaretta returned to England in 1913. Anders was wealthy, leaving over \u00a337,000 at probate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    So, Elsie might have been a servant to well-off families in Southsea <\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    My mum asked why she might have gone to Portsmouth. Well, it was a fairly direct journey south from Newbury, and there were jobs and sailors. If I were a teenage girl who wanted to leave home and strike out on my own, that would attract me. Money and potential marriage. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

    \n\n\n\n

    But why did she leave in the first place? With John Henry’s second marriage, Elsie gained a brother who was a little older than her, and shortly afterwards two sisters. Was that too many mouths? Was there an argument? <\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Why did she change her name? Did she name herself after her little sister Dorothy Elsie? <\/p>\n\n\n\n

    And what about her mother’s family? Edith had several siblings who lived well into the 20th century. Was Elsie still in touch with any of them? Interestingly, many of the DNA matches with the Watts family are from Canada – perhaps Elsie’s close relations had emigrated? <\/p>\n\n\n\n

    \n\n\n\n

    My curiosity and unwillingness to accept only the basic facts have led me to a fascinating story, which raises more questions than it answers, but which at least allows me to say, yes, I know who my great grandmother was.

    Now, why does my Ancestry DNA test say I am 16% Scottish …???<\/p>\n

    <\/div>

    <\/g><\/svg><\/i> \"Loading\"<\/p>

    <\/div>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

    In which I discover the true identity of my great grandmother, but now have far more questions …<\/p>\n

    <\/div>\n

    <\/g><\/svg><\/i> \"Loading\"<\/p>\n

    <\/div>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_s2mail":"yes","footnotes":""},"categories":[26,4],"tags":[8,7],"class_list":["post-996","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-52ancestors","category-post","tag-family-history","tag-genealogy"],"a3_pvc":{"activated":true,"total_views":74,"today_views":0},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/relativelyspeaking.one-name.blog\/wp\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/996","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/relativelyspeaking.one-name.blog\/wp\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/relativelyspeaking.one-name.blog\/wp\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/relativelyspeaking.one-name.blog\/wp\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/relativelyspeaking.one-name.blog\/wp\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=996"}],"version-history":[{"count":8,"href":"https:\/\/relativelyspeaking.one-name.blog\/wp\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/996\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":1013,"href":"https:\/\/relativelyspeaking.one-name.blog\/wp\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/996\/revisions\/1013"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/relativelyspeaking.one-name.blog\/wp\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=996"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/relativelyspeaking.one-name.blog\/wp\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=996"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/relativelyspeaking.one-name.blog\/wp\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=996"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}